Ivan Wanis Ruiz is a public speaker, hypeman, MC, public speaking teacher, and author of End Boring: A Tactical Approach to Public Speaking and Communication. Among his many passions is developing and sharing better and more effective communication strategies and techniques.
“People use the terms information and communication interchangeably but they mean different things. Information is giving out. Communication is getting through. It’s not about what you say, it’s about what people remember.”
Join Ivan as he shares his journey as a public speaker. He also shares public speaking tips to “end boring” to help listeners with an entrepreneurial mindset excel in the art of public speaking, pitching, presentation, and negotiations.
Website: https://publicspeakinglab.com/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/iwanisruiz
Twitter: https://twitter.com/IvanWanisRuiz
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/publicspeakinglab/
John: Welcome to the show lvan thank you for spending this time. I know you’re busy. I know you’re travelling. You’re exploring the world. You’re in Mexico right now. But the first question I want to ask you, so what’s the biggest crowd you’ve ever spoken in front of?
Ivan: The biggest crowd ever spoke in front of Okay, John, my friend. Okay. What do you give me a number? And I’ll tell you how close you are. Okay, give me a number. I’ll tell you
John: 5,000 ,20,000 up 100,000?
Ivan: Oh, that one day what so you know, Johnny, you have me and because of the public speaking, right, and you’d like to talk to people about their journeys, and whatever. So one of the things that I always wanted to do is, you can’t just talk, you got to be able to back it up. You know what I’m saying? You do? Think back to high school. And you know, when you would take these or university, these people would teach you public speaking, and you’d sit there just bored out of your mind.
And it’s like, and it was like, Oh, my God, these people are brutal. But that’s the that was it, right? So I always wanted to be the kind of guy that, you know, talk shit, but make hits. You can bleep that out afterward. I want it to be the kind of guy that like could back up everything he says and can demonstrate. So when I’m not teaching public speaking, I’m an MC. And you’ll see me on the camera for all the guys listening. i It’s I’m holding up a fist like I’m like I’m holding a mic. Because when I’m not like teaching public speaking stuff like that, I am literally a hype man. I’m a hype man. I’m an MC. I’m an announcer. And I recently just got back in November. Do you like soccer?
John: I’m not but
Ivan: don’t get mad. Don’t get mad listeners to basketball. Okay, line means that you like soccer. I like soccer. Okay, good. Cuz I just got back from being an MC for the FIFA Arab cup in Doha. And they built like five stadiums with like a 40 to 50,000 person capacity. And that’s what I that’s where I was in November. I was literally like, so imagine, like, you want to talk about high-stress moments. It’s like 45,000 people, and it’s like, a kill two minutes. You got two minutes, go do something interesting. And it’s like, and it’s just me, it’s just me and a microphone. If that’s all it is. And I’m on the Jumbotron. You know what I mean?
John: So it’s impromptu and they didn’t give you any kind of topics or any information for you to?
Ivan: So here’s the thing, because in the event, like sometimes something like something happens on the field and everything stops and play like a little video, but they’re like, and then it happens again, they can’t play that same video game. So they’re like, Ivan, we’re gonna throw to you in about 12 seconds.
Okay, let’s do something with the crowd. And it’s, and I’m just like, okay, all if you come here, would you hands up? No, could you put your hands like this and go left, right, ready for you? And it’s like, literally, there’s someone in front of you with a camera going. If you just follow me, everybody, that it’s like the sweat dude. Like,
John: That’s amazing. Yes, I see that. So I go to Raptors games all the time. And I see the MCS and they have it so well, I guess, done up because they’ve been doing it for years, right practicing. And they kind of know where to go in each crowd section, what to say and how to do it. But if you’ve never done it before, I can imagine how stressful it is right on such a big stage. But it’s so much fun. Like I can tell that.
Ivan: Dude beats a normal job right?
John: It’s normal, like, what are you good at? And what do you enjoy? It seems like you found your passion. And so you know, if you don’t mind. The second question I wanted to ask you is how did you meet Leonardo DiCaprio?
Ivan: So before I was ever, you know, we’re Canadian. So for all the international audience, okay. Don’t let the accents fool you were Canadian. I went to university Montreal, right. And this is if anyone is in university, you got a lot of probably up and coming people listening to this. Here’s one of the best kind of like life hacks I learned in university. And that is as a job in university don’t work in a restaurant.
Don’t do any of that kind of stuff. I mean, you can write but who cares, instead become an extra in background films. Because chances are it’s going to be like a 12 hour day where you’re only working for one or two hours. So I would show up to these background gigs and in Montreal. The reason I did this wasn’t because I was smart. It’s because my French wasn’t good enough and I couldn’t get a job.
So as they see, like, what job could I get? Oh, just walking down the street like in movies? Yeah, I can do that. So I was in this film called The Aviator with Leonardo DiCaprio. And he’s literally standing right behind me for like three days. Because they’re just filming this one scene from all these angles for three days. So after a while, you know, just out of politeness. Hey, how’s it going? Nice to meet you. Hey, good morning. Alright. See you tomorrow.
How was lunch? Like, just polite conversation. But here’s but for anyone listening, listen, if you live in a major city, find the background actors place, right? Get that job, schedule your university so that your classes are like you have a couple of days free during the week. And then you tell that background casting said, Hey, I’m available every like Thursday, and for Thursday, and Friday, boom, I would show up, and they feed you. That’s the other thing they feed you. So you get food, you have lots of time to study, I would show up my textbook and I’d sit in the corner and study, you get food.
And then you meet all kinds of random people you talk about, like ways to expand your network. Formal networking events are always awkward events where there’s just a lot of people by diffusion, you have to meet people, because you might be put with like four people like you guys, just pretend you’re having dinner, go and then we’ll leave you alone. And we’ll just sit there like so how you know where you’re from, that kind of stuff. get fed, you get lots of time to study, and you get to meet people, and you get paid.
John: That’s interesting. I actually have a really good friend that’s still doing kind of background. Oh, really? And he has a full-time job. Yes, in Toronto. And now he’s on a couple Netflix. Yo series, right? And I’m like, Hey, I know that guy.
Ivan: He’s like, isn’t it so much fun when you freak out a little bit? You’re like, Oh, my God. Every now and then. Okay. So between us, John. I have this whole other life. And between us in here entire listening audience. I actually have this whole other life as a professional actor. Oh, nice. And if you there’s certain shows that I have constantly. I filmed them like three, four years ago, you know, but I’ll get friends who watch Black Widow, not Black Widow, Black Orchid, or designated survivor, these shows, and I have these parts in these shows. And they’re like, thank you. And I get these little kinds of things. That’s awesome. Are you are you an Xbox guy? Or are you
John: No, I don’t play video games. But I’m more Netflix, I watch Amazon, you know, I buy. I read a lot. I consume a lot of content that way. So
Ivan: The reason I asked is that I recently if you ever for anyone who’s playing Far Cry six, and you’re listening to this, see if you recognize my voice. That’s all I’m gonna say. Okay, that’s all I’m gonna say, John.
John: That’s awesome Ivan. So let’s get back to the right let’s, let’s find out a little bit about how you became such an expert in public speaking, like, what got you really into wanting to help others speak better? You’re on camera on stage? Because that’s your profession today?
Ivan: Yeah, yeah. And John. So, John, I’ll tell you something, man. I worked like you. You’ve had a lot of jobs, right? I’ve had a lot of jobs. I worked in finance, and I hated it. I worked in pharmaceutical sales. And I didn’t like that at all. You know what I mean? I worked in HR, I did bookkeeping, I worked in a non for profit, you know, and every time I did these jobs, I was not good at any of them. But for some, you know, when you get it for anyone who’s listening when you get hired by a new company, there’s always like an orient like a week of orientation, where you go to the head office, and you know, the kind of you know, they train you about the company.
For some reason, every time I did those things, I was just always the guy who was good at talking. Before I ever went to university, I got a job with the Ministry of Attorney General. I used to travel around the province and teach, do interactive workshops on racism and violence. I was like 19. So by the time I got to university, I was really good at presenting because I not because I was good at because I’d been doing it for two years before I went to university, then I was in case competitions. You know, if you go to business school, you have to present in every single class.
And so I was like, naturally good at that. So by the time I started getting all these jobs, I was just comfortable in front of people. You know what I mean? I still get nervous all the time. Like you. You’ll always get nervous. Yo, hey, listen in person stopped doing the dishes for a minute, hey, stop, hey, you’re always going to be nervous. And anyone who tells you different means well, but they’re lying to you. It’s not about being not being nervous.
I get nervous to this day in front of you don’t think I was nervous about 40,000 people. The secret is practicing so that nerves do not affect delivery. And I’ll give you an example that later. But anyway, dude. So then basically what happened was I just said like, I wanted to pursue an acting career. And I also thought that because I’m good at public speaking maybe I can do something with that. So I did Toastmasters and I’m like, I got the highest like, I’m distinguished Toastmaster. I went to Dale Carnegie, you know how to win friends and influence people and I became a Dale Carnegie certified trainer in high-impact presentations. But honestly, it’s all dogmatic. It’s all the same self-help, like touchy-feely kind of stuff. Because? Listen, the biggest problem with teaching communication skills is that most people have only two backgrounds.
They only do two things. One, oh, I was in sales for 20 years, therefore I’m good at public speaking. Well, no, you’re not you’re you did sales for 20 years. That’s not public speaking. If you’re so good at public speaking, why don’t you have a talk show? Get up on an open mic night showing what you can do? Here’s a mic kill two minutes in front of 40,000 people, no, they can’t do that. They just did sales, and they get these little sales presentations.
The other part and this is the other time everyone tries to teach you to be a motivational speaker. And it’s this, I’m sorry if I keep Can I swear on this thing. I’m sorry. It’s just a reaction. So I want to ignore it, I apologize. Or you get a little sound coming at me. The other thing is, they all teach you to be these motivational speakers. And that does not apply to the day to day so I was so frustrated. Like I take these Dale Carnegie training or Toastmasters and they it’s like everyone always had to cry telling you about some sort of childhood trauma some.
And I was like, what does this have to do with my quarterly sales report? How was speaking with passion part of my five minutes scrum in the morning? Like the you know what I’m saying? Like there was this huge disconnected. And, John, you right now listening audience right now, who are the best public speakers in the world? Go think about it. John, you answered go.
John: Public speakers.
Ivan: Who are the best public speakers in the world?
John: People that are on TV, right? I mean, you mean? Yes, we are. I mean, some of them talk show hosts. I mean, Tony Robbins is pretty good. You know, Gary Vee is pretty good. Those guys are just impromptu. And they actually are, you know, people that I kind of look up to, because they have done it through just practice and constant, you know, in the trenches, right. That’s how I feel about everything really, in business in public speaking in podcasting, and, you know, in anything, it’s all about, like, practice, the more you do it, the more comfortable you are, yes, you’re gonna get stressed. Here’s the yes, there’s nerves involved.
But what happens is you overcome that, because you’ve done so many at different moments throughout your life, that you’re able to be able to pivot in be nimble enough to get through it. just plow through Right. Like everything is all about just practice, habit.
Ivan: Let me highlight something for you. Because I agree. I agree with you. The practice element is a meat is the one part and that’s what’s missing. Because most people would train like storytelling, they just have a bunch of anecdotes, but no tactics. You know, you just really got to find that thing that allow you to connect with your audience. And you’re like, Yeah, dude, how? Well just really try and focus on something specific. Well, I thought I was how, like, no one shows you everyone gives you ideas, no tactics. But notice something. Okay. Talk Show Host. Yeah. Notice how many motivational speakers you mentioned.
Can we put take Tony Robbins and say you got five minutes? And I want you to highlight the key sales figures go. You can’t the guy, the guy has to talk for three hours on interview, if you’ve ever seen that. He just he’s so verbose. On the other hand, take this, take that guy, take the other guy who’s a good talk show. Yeah. Do you think he could do you think hey, listen, I work for an international logistics company? I just have to do an update on ISO standards. That’s public speaking, isn’t it? So there have been here so that the practice notice, all the practice is like that. You need the diversity of practice. Let me challenge your audience a little bit.
You are most people would say like politicians. You know, when I say who’s a good public speaker, they say like Obama, and you’re like, dude, you’ve never invited your friends over for beer pizza and an Obama speak. You’ve never done it. Most people say like, oh, Martin Luther King. No, I guarantee you 90% of people have never listened to the full 25-minute speech. And MLK Day was just a few days ago. Most people just said no, I have a drink. So that’s not it. You’re right. stand-up comedians, late-night talk show hosts What about buskers? How they make you stop on the street? Take off your earphones and listen to them.
What about professional wrestlers right? And then you take those guys and you mix it in with your I did 20 years in sales. I was in marketing and you and here’s the thing most of us only practice one of those two ways the entertainment motivational speaker way or I was in marketing the business the way who does both Ah, now You’re thinking, so for the listening audience, you know, one of the elements you have to do is you have to learn like the way John was saying, and John had like a month delicious moment of the practice is important.
But you have to practice diversity in communication. Because there’s no right way. You’re not saying the way Tony Robbins speaks, is just the way Tony Robbins reads. And remember, he’s speaking to crowds that are paying to see him. So he doesn’t have to buy he doesn’t there’s no obstacles to overcome. Same with Gary Vee, right? They were just like they’re already speak to people were like, I tied my shoes today. And people like, ooh, let me write that down.
It’s so thought-provoking. Right? You also got to check out these other guys like, who, like a busker makes 100 strangers in a few minutes, his best friend, or her best friend? How, what do they do? How does a professional poker player know that someone’s bluffing or nervous? Isn’t that communication? What if you mix that in with how professional wrestlers get a crowd hyped? So these are ideas that I explored that no one else is talking about? And then can you make that into an actual tactic you can practice the way you practice skiing.
The way you practice mountain climbing, we were talking about mountain climbing before, right? Like, because listen, it’s not about grabbing a thing, right? Usually, it’s the way you grab it. And people think it’s about your arm. But really, it’s about putting your hips against something and using your legs. But can you that’s physical practice, can you turn? Can you add that physical practice into soft skills? That’s what I’m on a mission to do, dude. Anyway, that was a whole tangent, that was a whole tangent. And that the moral of the story is that you should all listen to John because he’s saying brilliant shit. So no,
John: No because of different perspectives, right? And you’ve going to toastmaster because you’re in a professional setting. And you need to do those sales meetings, and you’re doing all of these presentations. And therefore they really want to focus on who their clientele are asking them to achieve success for right ? to harness that skill set in front of a corporate environment, to self-help kind of people that are going to the Tony Robbins, I mean, It’s a little bit different, because they want to just show that emotional tie, right. So it’s all based on who you’re trying to make an impact to.
And the delivery is completely different. The way you want to teach public speaking is completely different for the different types of personas and avatars that you want to reach out to. So I get you diversity is important. However, people are in one space agenda most of the time. And usually, it’s a great place, right. And that’s what pays the bills most time. And with if you don’t have those soft skills on how you build relationships like you don’t know how to speak in front of friends or colleagues or communities, neighbours, and then you get up and try to speak in front of others.
Likes, it’s going to be difficult, right? So I’m all about you know, just getting to know people. So I’m very open. I’m an extrovert, like no other, I kind of tried to just build friendships no matter what. And that allows me to be open to a lot of public speaking a lot of just having fun. And I cherish these moments like this, because it’s like, this is what I’m here for right to make a difference in other people’s lives by small difference, right? It doesn’t matter what it is. But having fun, making sure that people enjoy my presence, and hopefully taking one tidbit, whatever it is to move along with their lives, right? But like publicity.
Ivan: Let me jump in with something actually, because I really like what you’re saying, John. And here’s something here’s a really interesting idea. Because when you know, when you talk about you have your podcast and you’re trying to get people to get that nice snippet, right. You’re trying to give people something they can learn from what I really love about what you’re doing is you’re giving it in a specific way. Because here’s, here’s what I’m telling you.
Have you ever heard of the concept of infotainment? No, no. Okay. So infotainment is when I was in for the MC for FIFA, the department I worked at was called infotainment. And here’s the underlying reasoning. In a day and age, John, we’re all information is readily available. The way we deliver that information is going to be more and more important. So you know what I’m saying? You have all those books behind you that you read. Right? And there’s a there’s other podcast people that are going to talk about those books, but the way you’re delivering it is what’s gonna set you apart that delivery and you said you know, people have to work on that delivery that practice in front of people.
And I so agree with that. 100% remember everyone infotainment if all the information is there, and I can access it like one on the slide deck afterward or on my own in 30 seconds. Why should I listen to you? Because you’re giving it to me in a really fun or interesting way. And John? I love that you brought up fun because why can’t presenting be fun? Like in a business meeting? know what I’m saying, like, if I’m doing if I’m presenting like quarterly results, have you ever noticed it’s like a funeral. Hello, everyone.
Today I’d like to discuss some of the quarterly results that we’ve had today. We believe I’m very excited that we will be moving forward on the initiative moving expanding. See, no one’s listening, right? Everyone’s like, Uh-huh. Could you imagine if John was doing it, and he had like, the way you’re, you’re moving your hands and that fun to smile, and then maybe you throw in a joke once in a while, then people would remember the numbers. It’s that infotainment, and I think that’s what you’re doing. Well, my friend,
John: And it’s attention, right, like people have so much going on, from social to everything from news to whatever, we’re how they consume content. How do you gain their attention, let it be smaller snippets because people’s attention span is smaller, shorter, they skim to headlines, and whatever it is short little clips. But the whole thing is how do you keep them engaged enough to absorb content in a way that they will actually gain something out of it.
And that’s the challenge we have in today’s society and world because with real-time data at their disposal, people attention span is so short than ever before, they don’t have these habits of training and wanting to do things the hard way. They want things given to them at a you know, very fast rate. And they don’t want pay for any of it. They want everything to be there for them at their disposal, because it’s real-time Uber-like, right that real-time, everything else and instant. Because I don’t want to cook when I can just couple clicks comes to me. Yes, it’s a little fee. But that’s the cost of it.
Ivan: Oh, hold on. My Uber Eats is here. Kidding. I’m just kidding. I’m just messing you up.
John: You’re right like people has changed in terms of how they consume information data, as well as they live living their lives transformed with technology. last five years, things have changed. And with public speaking, I’m sure how your audience is engaged is completely different. Like maybe you do shout out Instagram, take out your phone, everyone, which is completely different than 10 years ago, because no one took out their phones. Make sure you’re posting Tik Tok and Instagram because that’s what people are all about today.
Ivan: You know what I love what you’re saying. And let me post two things. Let me just give the audience a couple of little things that could based on what you said that I really like, number one, you’re so right, because if you think about it, and now even with like, when I was taking all this training and doing you know different trying to learn from all the professional speakers, were doing the exact same thing we did in the 70s. In the 60s in the 80s, the 90s.
The only difference between a PowerPoint deck now. And in 1994, when it whatever we came out is the font and the background. It’s still the exact same formats, the only there is no difference between the way people presented in like 1994. And the way they’re presenting now. Title Slide my name is so and so today, I want to talk to you about this, what’s on the slide behind you. My name is so and so today I want to talk about this, which is why none of us pay attention to that part agenda. Let me read the agenda or say it’s not important. Why is it there then? And so you have to change. And one of the things I was asked I highlight when you think about like professional speakers and stuff like that. I mean, we have to change our definition of what good speaking is because who am I?
That you know, does a workshop for 30 people, right? Where you have like Mr. Beast on YouTube who people will spend 40 minutes watching him just talk and they just or Yeah, or Marcus Brownlee like think about listen, you want to talk about long-form. I know the attention spans with Instagram, but the long-form communication medium that should be the standard by which we judge ourselves is YouTube. In my humble opinion, because you will have if you follow someone you I will watch Marty’s Brownlee talk about technology for his full 40-minute video.
I might be like this and listening but he’ll get me for watch. I’d like watching those long videos on YouTube. Isn’t here really good communicator isn’t here, good public speaker. And think about it like this. John, how many people in your room with you right now? Self, you’re you I’m alone. You probably got some people in the other. But listen, who is better, who is better at speaking and being interesting and engaging talking to a laptop alone in their living room than YouTube celebrities? Think about that. So why aren’t we copying what they’re doing? Why are we trying to copy some guy who’s like 80 years old who’s trying to sell you a multi-level marketing scheme?
John: Well, it’s right. It’s the influencer base right so I get people. People have to put in their time they got to earn it. And then they got to understand who their audiences, right? If you have a couple million like Mr. B’s, 90 million followers, who is the demographics that is following him? Right? And yes, he excites those people that constantly watch those videos, right?
So it all depends on who your audiences and who you want to attract. And the hardest audience people want to attract are people that can pay them. Right? So the challenge is, how do you attract people that are willing to pay for your products and services, enough of a bigger audience like YouTube, I’ve been working on YouTube. For the last year, I have a YouTube channel. I’ve been working on it harvesting my craft. And it’s a lot of work. But I started it a year ago, just like podcasting, I started four years ago, and I feel I’m getting the hang of it.
Because I’ve been practicing every single day, for many years, just like anything, if you really are true to wanting to get better, you got to put in the time and effort to train, learn, make mistakes, and get better. But a lot of people want to fast-track it without do putting in the work. And that’s where the society we have today is a little bit different than what it used to be what it once was. There’s no easy way to earn a million followers. You got to earn it the hard way. You got to work on it. Right?
Ivan: No. And let me add another because you’re right about the hard work element. And you’re right, because one of the things I always challenge is like, do you like cooking? John, you like cooking?
John: No, I do not, I like eating. I love, like eating.
Ivan: Okay, well, I’ll tell you something, man. I love watching cooking shows. Like I’m a big cooking and what I love. Here’s one thing that I thought was one of the most profound things that I learned from a cooking show. And it’s another public speaking thing. And it has to do with what you’re saying about your YouTube channel and your podcast. And how, like, who doesn’t have a podcast nowadays? You know what I’m saying? Like, everybody’s got a podcast now.
And there are so many of them are terrible. Or they’re forgettable even worse, right? I’m watching like, who’s gonna be the next? Celebrity Chef kind of competition, right? Yeah. And the one thing that just kept coming up over and over and over, they’re like, Listen, you can cook. Great. So can everyone else on this show. So can a million other people in this world? What is the point of view that about cooking that you bring that is going to make you interesting to listen to? What is the point of view that you have that not everyone else has?
What is the delivery that you have? And before you know, I always like to listen. I listen to a lot of leadership podcasts. And one of the things that that and I’ve been on a few that, and I hope this isn’t going to be one of them, where I’m pretty sure they’re never going to air the episode. Because I always challenge them. And I always ask, and I asked this question. It’s like, do you think you’re bringing something new to the table? And they’re like, yes. And there, and it’s always the same answer what? Well, you know, I’m really trying to have a conversation.
Really? Then how can you have that formalized introduction? Really? Then why are you reading questions to me? Really? Then why are you asking me these, like, cookie-cutter job interview, and they’re and every single time it’s like, these awkward silences? And I’m like, You’re never gonna have me on your show again, and I’m sorry. But listen, if you want to make an impact, if you want to have a change, yes, it’s you have your niche, your audience. But you don’t necessarily have to niche. Gary Vee is really popular because he has a very unique point of view.
And if you say, well, that’s his audience, but if your audience is like 50 million people, I think it’s pretty safe to say you have a broad audience. Do you know what I’m saying? Like, if your audience is international, you have a broad audience. And so it’s that aspect that I think you’re alluding to that hard work, and then also trying to have that unique perspective and point of view, because if I can listen, I can find out how to start a business in 1000 podcasts.
Jon’s podcast is the one I’m listening to because he gives it to me in this unique way, this fun way that I can consume. I listened to the Motley Fool. Do you listen to the Motley Fool? You know, I’m talking about Motley Fool. Yeah, so before the Motley Fool there was all these podcasts that I just like, I’d have to like, I have to listen to this because it’s good for me. I’m eating kale, I’m just eating kale. But the delivering the point of view on the Motley Fool made it like having a smoothie and I don’t even taste the kale you know what I mean?
John: And it’s interesting because you get consumed and just like everyone else, they have their you know, things that pique their interest. They have commonalities, they have uniqueness, they have personality and They have something that really attracts them to your audience. Right, and then it makes them sticky, and whatever that may be. And hopefully, you’re as genuine as possible, because you don’t want to keep faking it right.
So you got to own up to whatever that is, and stick with it. And that’s how I’ve been doing it, just do it my way. If people like it, great, if they don’t like it, great, right? I’m not gonna attract everyone, I just do it. Because I love what I’m doing. And I’m passionate doing it. I bring on guests that I think are great additions to who my audience is looking for consuming information, right. So for me, adding value to their lives is what I’m trying to aim towards.
And you bringing a different dimension on how public speaking can help business owners Excel, you know, understand, like, if you don’t know how to sell, like that whole basic revenue, sales profit, like it’s gonna be challenging for you to continue profiting and staying in business, right? Like, you got to learn that art of presentation, pitching negotiation sales, you know, unique either way.
Ivan: Let me give you, Just because we’ve been talking ideas, and I mentioned to you earlier John, there’s more than enough people who give you ideas. Very few people translate them into physical tactics you can practice, so let me just because you said those things right now. Let me give you some physical things that everyone can practice right now, number one, when you are presenting online and this is something it’s not me, it’s something I copied from like the best on youtube.
The people that can watch like their whole playlist right, there is one thing that we can replicate when we’re on zoomer teams and that is you need to jump back and forth between your camera and your slides. So don’t just share a PowerPoint deck with you in the top corner as a little square, go 70% you talking 30% your slides, because every time you change the visual on someone, they go like this: what am I what am i looking at right now?
So for example John if you push this on youtube, every time we make a reference to like if you do this and this will be the reveal. If you don’t just cut it out, but if you edit this youtube video that every time we bring up anything, from mountain climbing to the food network and you popped up the picture, every single person in the answer was going, why did that change? what changed and there’s a moment of re-engagement. Every time you change the visual on someone whether it’s slides, whether it’s you, a moment of re-engagement and you need that virtually because virtually you don’t have to be polite.
Like there’s not a single person here who hasn’t been on a zoom call, but also had their email open do you know what I’m saying? like how many I always say how many tabs you got open right now? You know what I mean, I have like six tabs open I’m trying I’m trying not looking at any but they’re there, and they’re like there you know show me your phone John, where’s your phone?
John: In my pocket turned off. It was buzzing.
Ivan: It’s right there and then this is mine right here it’s like right there right? It’s always there and so that’s what you’re fighting against so change the visual by jumping back and forth between you and your slides. Here’s a second easy tactic okay? Understand and this is why I referenced earlier people, who are in sales for 20 years call themselves experts, all they give you is anecdotes, well you know this one time I won this award and therefore, I’m awesome and that’s all that’s where they get all their validity from, you know what I mean?
Why does that work? If you look at the science, go on PubMed everyone and look at decision making, there’s another great book called the organized mind by John Levitin, who’s a neuroscientist at McGill University when you and when you ask people to make choices, right ? or when you ask people to decide between options, the fun of the brain opens up like the neocortex the newest part of our brain, lights up for half a second and then it lights up back here in the hippocampus hypothalamus area, which is the older kind of emotion centers. Any good pitch has to appeal to both, how do you do that? Have your specific anecdote and follow it up by one number.
Let me give you a really good day-to-day example, John listening audience, listeners how many of you want to get in better shape? John, are you a workout guy?
John: Yes I am.
Ivan: You ever heard of p90x?
John: Yes I do.
Ivan: You know if you’ve ever watched p90x oh yeah! Insanity baby, I’m a grad. I’m so, listen if you’ve ever watched those shows, even though you’ve done it, watch that infomercial today and see if you’re like you know what I should buy that again? wait no I have it, I don’t need to buy like it’s so motivating what do they do they do that one-two they say, in 90 days six-pack abs and what is it it’s like this yo listen I did it now I clean shirts with my washboard abs, and it says not typical results and you know this is not typical results, but they give you a number that 90 days to anchor on and an anecdote and it’s, and that’s what gets you.
So any good pitch needs to have an anecdote at the beginning and then, a solid number that you repeat throughout your pitch. So those are two quick tactics one I’m presenting and one I’m communicating that people can practice, and the way you practice is like this because John we talked about practice right and let me give you this one last topic. So I asked you about Xbox if you like Xbox and I said I voiced something on fire crime, it is one of the most you want to talk about more stressful, it’s more stressful than being in a graph of 40,000 people, for me is you’re in a sound both and this is going to be great for the listeners, watch the youtube video listeners you want to watch follow John on youtube.
Right now stop listening and go on youtube right now, because I’m going to demo something this is what doing, voices on voice commercial, voice acting which I do it looks like. You say something and this is what you see in you can’t hear it all you can do is see it. We need you to do that again? Do you know how stressful that is and you’re in your head, you’re like I’m a failure they hate me, they’re going to fire me I’m a, I’m afar, I’m afraid like it’s so stressful. So how do you practice? Because you’re always going to be stressed, remember I said earlier you will always be stressed there is no such thing as overcoming nervousness.
Nervousness is a physiological reaction to stress, there’s and there’s no such thing as not feeling stressed, it’s you know what I mean it’s like it’s just the silliest in the world, but here’s what youd do. You have to practice always with the stress of being watched by other, people you have to first get nervous and then try and practice your speech. How do you do that let me give you three ways, number one, you go up to like your friend’s significant other you call your friend on youtube and say, hey listen can I practice this in front of you ? and if you’ve ever anyone listening John you’ve done this too, they’re like sure and you go like this, okay hold on hold give me a minute give me a minute, and you have to need that minute you know what I mean.
That’s the stress of being do that five times in front of the same person boom, done stops bothering you, suppose you’re alone you’re a lonely person listening to a podcast while you’re walking down the street alone, you have no one to practice in front of what do you do then? you can practice in front of, you don’t mirror doesn’t do it sitting alone in your room doesn’t do it, you can turn on your camera but here’s the rule, once you push record you cannot stop it and watch yourself terse record and blank, because you’re watching yourself suppose you have, no you’re alone and you live in a cave and you have no electricity Ivan I can’t record myself and I have no one to practice front of what do you do then.
This is what I did to practice for the voice work. You walk you go outside and you practice out loud where people can see you, even if no one is around John I try this try if you’re ever going to do a presentation try this I swear to you it’ll be the you will never feel more self-conscious in your whole life. Walk around the block even if no one is there you’ll be like you won’t even be able to do it, but keep doing it and start doing your speech out loud you see someone walk by you’ll panic, you’ll forget what you’re going to say good, good because you’re replicating what you’ll feel in the real world and then when you actually have to do it, It won’t be new so you’ll feel the nervousness but it won’t affect delivery.
When I was practicing to do this voice work far cry 6 is the game by the way if anyone’s playing far cry 6, believe me, John believe me when I’m telling you I’m walking down Bloor.downtown Toronto saying my lines out loud, and it’s not like hey how are you? It’s like I’m gonna kill all you mofos everyone get the grenades get it’s like an action game and I’m saying these things out loud like a crazy person I’m not yelling them, but I’m like they’re members like who’s in there? I swear to god if you don’t come out of here I’m gonna start shooting.
I’m just saying just walking down the street and this the self-consciousness I’m feeling is I’m so like oh my god, I’m more they all think I’m crazy but then I’m in the room and I’m watching people go like this, and I’m feeling that same stress but I can still think through it because I’ve now acclimatized myself to the stress it’s like I built calluses to it. Anyone listening who’s been in the army knows this exact same thing they, they replicate high-stress situations and they’ll tell you to like, put take apart your weapon and re-put it together under high stress and you, so that you get used to it and it doesn’t affect delivery there are bunch of tactics for people.
John: Ivan those are amazing. I mean I do want to stress a couple of things that you mentioned, which is you know YouTube make sure that you do have different frames right? And we’ve been doing that for the last six months like we have a Local Seo Search kind of YouTube channel that was launched and as much as I talk there’s always these images things that pop up and all that, and that allows for you know change right?
and I’ve hired experts to do all this right? like this is what they do for a living so I expect them to do it properly. And then you know if you think about all the stuff that you talked about in terms of public speaking, like get uncomfortable I would not emphasize getting in front of a lot of people if you’re gonna talk about like shootings and grenades and don’t go on an airplane saying you have all that stuff because you may get banned for life.
Ivan: Yes
John: But I would say if it doesn’t harm others you need to start practicing it. Get out there
Ivan: And the stress of being watched, practice with the stress of being watched
John: The stress of being watched, but if the words don’t you know attract good attention and you might you know police may come or whatever like, I would tell the audience members not to do stuff like that just because you know you may get in trouble, but I would say always try to be uncomfortable and this is why I do Wim Hof like I shower in cold water for a couple of minutes a day, I go for walks in the morning at six a.m.
When everyone else is sleeping at minus 30 degrees right, you’ve got to always challenge yourself to stress different parts of your body, food-wise,business-wise, public speaking wise, whatever relationship-wise you gotta challenge to be a better human with all these stressors in life you’re gonna be too comfortable, and that’s what’s going on in the world today like everyone’s so used to certain things, they want things given to them, they don’t want to earn it and work at it.
They want you know YouTube to constantly play videos that our videos that they’ve already previously right?, while you know what are you gonna do with that video are you gonna do something, take action a lot of people aren’t right?, There’s constantly staying watching videos and that’s what YouTube loves they want to keep you engaged watching more and more videos.
This is where tech has got played with your psychological mind right and same as social pose same with a lot of media, I stay away from a lot of that because I know what’s behind it and why they’re doing certain things. I’m very old school like I love reading versus audio, I know a lot of people listen to podcasts, watch YouTube videos but for me, I still like sitting in front of my sofa and reading with physical no distractions and when I’m done my coffee, I could go for a walk right?
It’s like whatever works for you right. So, Ivan what you’ve been up to like I know you’re in Mexico you told me that you don’t really have a fixed address right now, you used to live in Toronto, you’re originally from Canada like what is going on in the foreseeable future for you and your career, your business like in life really.
Ivan: Well you know I’ve transitioned completely to a virtual kind of training because by virtue luckily but funny enough I have a course at University of Toronto and that I recorded in 2018,2019 called ‘communication strategies’ for a virtual age.
And then at 2020 everything went virtual and that course kinda blew up and so I was almost not because I was any sort of prescience, I had just developed all these virtual communication tactics so over the last two years, I’ve just been teaching how to teach and communicate virtually amazing using like using a bunch of like simple tactics like strategies for chat, strategies for video benchmarking.
Like I said all the people who I think do it very well and that’s kind of like what’s going on for the future. I’ve been I don’t know about you but I’ve been trying to leverage that more and more because you talk about people starting a business, I have a bunch of courses on Udemy and on virtual communication on public speaking and virtual communication and I just finished riding a book and I’m writing a new one so my book is called ‘End Boring’ a tactical approach to public speaking and that’s like my whole thing, Physical Tactics you can practice and the response has been great, hopefully, you can share a link so everyone can go to check it out ‘End Boring’ on Amazon.
John: Yeah, definitely I’ll share all the show notes like send me all your information so I can share it for sure.
Ivan: Yep, if anyone wants to find me it’s ‘Public Speaking Lab’. And just a little note I called the public speaking lab because whenever I’m doing any training where it’s live or even in my virtual courses because it’s tactics you’re always experimenting so for example I don’t say here’s how you do an opening, I say here’s a formula for doing an opening, everyone make your own versions let’s see what happens lets experiment and that’s how I do my training so that’s a public speaking lab on Instagram and everything like that
John: That’s amazing
Ivan: I don’t about you but I’m sort of looking forward to going back to in-person but sort of also really enjoying being virtual as well.
John: Because a lot of people are comfortable, right?
Ivan: Oh dude yeah.
John: And it allows you to have more freedom to do and choose and go anywhere.
Ivan: Absolutely!
John: You know restrictions, just like you, you kind of had a foresight to start teaching these courses like I started this agency 2013 virtual staff like everyone was amazing so, I already had so many years ahead of what just happened the last couple years and it didn’t have any impact in my business, so for me, I’m very lucky and honored and grateful for all the things that unfolded and I look forward to just ramping it up more, right? because you know this is the future really.
Ivan: So I want to ask you something then because this is going to be interesting, so in 2013 how did you find your virtual staff?,like how did you get like was it just Craiglist like how did you do it?
John: No no no it’s all overseas yeah so I was using all those you know different sites online, I forgot what they were really free,
Ivan: Is it because?
John: All those you know Global Sites and I made so many mistakes I didn’t even know how to hire, I was at the beginning it was all price and then eventually I hired a lot locally from relationships, previous jobs and so I’ve learned a lot because I had to make mistakes.
Ivan: You know one of the things I always remember from Tim Ferris is four hours because he talked about virtual, he was very prescient I think he kind of he almost spawned the whole like, like-hacking guru kind of stuff right like the modern era of it, but I’ve never forgotten one of his lessons was about because, if you’ve never read the book gang it’s basically just a bunch of case studies with like some learnings at the end but it’s basically all case studies.
But he says if you ever hire a virtual assistant first say like ask them their rate but the only commit to doing like one or two hours and then see what they do then benchmark their progress. So like you know my first time I got a virtual assistant, I said I need to get this done and then they just said, it’s done and they gave me this number and I had no idea how long it took them.
But now every time I get a virtual assistant, I’m like so listen this is the rate great can you please work for 30 mins and let me know how much you’ve done, and then can you work for an hour? okay, I want you to do this thing but after one hour please stop, and get give me your progress because then that helps me to benchmark how much I need to pay them. And it’s really tedious at first but then, in the long run, you just you’d start trusting how much they can do you set the benchmark did you ever do that?
John: No, at the beginning I just didn’t have time right and I made a lot of mistakes, I mean you learned right? And you are looking for people that are, I guess the same values as you, same culture same understanding of what you want to perceive right in your company so, for me, it was like the fit more than anything.
Ivan: You know and, I think that it’s so valiant and anyone who’s listening because I’m terrible at this John I am terrible at letting go. When you’re an entrepreneur it’s like I can do that.
John: It was great man.
Ivan: Because you’re like I could do this better than anyone. I was the guy who’s like I wanted to edit a video and they’re like it’s gonna cost this much and I’m like what? I’m just gonna learn how to use final cut pro and do it myself, did I? Yes could those hours and hours of learning final cut pro been more efficiently spent? Yes, so one of the things I’ve really I can’t recommend enough is, letting go and having more and more virtual assistants.
John: Who Not How, so you got to find more people to do their expertise,
Ivan: Oh dude you really.
John: Focus on what gives you the highest ticket value right? But that takes a lot of learning right, you got to actually be an expert at whatever you’re trying to sell, to then charge it and back it up with case studies and social proof so, Ivan this has been a lot of fun, I’m gonna end it off with. Yeah let me know like, so what’s the best way for people to reach out to you I’m going to share a little bit with everyone, the show notes but is there a social handle that people can reach out to or email or what.
Ivan: Okay let me give you two things, one my how to get a hold of me and two an inspirational quote because no business leadership thing is ever finished without an inspirational quote good sir, So I’ll give you both okay? number one public speaking lab, It’s publicspeakinglab.com it’s public speaking lab on Linkedin, It’s public speaking lab on Instagram and on Instagram, I post like two or three little one minute, like quick hacks here’s a quick presentation act here’s a quick community I’m constantly posting hacks and stuff like that, so public speaking lab the book is called “End Boring”.
I try to think of a simple name it’s bright orange because if you know maybe I’ve communicated this I’m trying to change the world, I want people to look forward to their next virtual meeting. It’s an impossible task john but we’re doing it, So“End Boring” is the book and so that’s how people can find me get a hold of me and I’ll send you the links whatever.
On my website is all my courses. Inspirational quote get ready you ready for this hold on let me make it dramatic, let me do what all the motivational speakers do you silence and talk in this voice, no okay so here’s the quote that it’s always like it’s just profound for me. “People use the terms information and communication interchangeably but they mean different things, information is giving out communication is getting through, it’s not about what you say it’s about what people remember”.
John: It’s true grateful, Ivan.
Ivan: Dramatic pause yeah! Good and whit that, thank you very much john it’s been a pleasure, I love your, love your passion and your energy and I just want to say I’m humbled by you taking some time to speak to me so from Mexico.
John: I’m grateful for you, well you’re originally from Toronto so I respect that.
Ivan: I’m random Canadian guy thank you.
John: That’s awesome man whenever you’re back hit me up, I really appreciate your time thank you for some great tips, wisdom I know you’re out for you know trying to change the world for the better, so I love that but iI really appreciate you being on this episode and for all the listeners thank you once again.
Ivan: Thanks everybody, Bye!
